Maria Pandiello was born in Donostia in 1981 and she holds a degree in romance philology. She's a PhD in Art History. Her field of study is manuscripts and printed books from the 15th and 16th century. Through them, she examines the itinerancy of ideological currents and artistic expressions in European courts. She has written about semiotics; artistic and intellectual exchange through the books and the images, the political value of libraries, the role of women in the medieval political context and the use of images from an anthropological perspective.
Will: Hello, Maria. How are you doing?
María Pandiello: Hello. I'm fine. And how are you?
W: I'm really excited because I came across your book on Instagram. Funnily enough, there is this account called GenderSource that uses some of the images that you have on your project Visions of Manuscripts. I don't know if you know about the account but it intermingles those images with some poetry that they write because they are also a theater writer. I just scrolled a bit and found out that you've published a book in La Felguera, which is actually one of my most favorite Spanish publishers.
MP: Mine too.
W: And just wanted to have you here. So really, really happy and excited about this.
MP: Grreat. Thank you. We're going to have, I think, a really nice conversation. That is for sure. And yeah, thank you for inviting me.
W: Yeah. So tell us a bit about you. I've read your bio, but, you know, this is quite extensive. So what are you up to?
MP: So I will talk a little bit about me and what I'm doing now. I'm a historian of art and I study 15th, 16th century illuminated manuscripts meaning. Can be written in a book with images. I study many things through the book I study the image and study the relation between the image and the text I study the book as a place of cultural exchange… Well there are many subjects that I study through the book and after many years of academic career I finished my PhD and I went into an existential crisis, let's call it like that.
W: Of course. Getting out of the academia, it's always like jumping into the abyss, right?
MP: Exactly I actually come from a working class background in my family and I found myself for many years into a very classist and elitist environment especially in middle ages study, this is very prominent. So I wanted to let's say, put the subjects that I study in the academy available for a wider audience without simplifying these subjects. Which are of course complex subjects. This was my main inspiration after my PhD because before I was mainly only read by scholars and that doesn't excite me that much at this moment so that's why I opened Visions of Manuscripts. It's originally an Instagram account so I wanted to to put out academical subjects. I opened a newsletter and then wrote my first non-academical book in La Felguera as you mentioned before. It's a book that analyzes alchemical images from manuscripts and right now, at this moment, I'm writing my second book. And this is my summer. My summer is mainly in my studio, writing.
W: I know how that is.
MP: Yes, you are in the same situation.
W: I've been in that situation, but yeah, it's intense. You just need to... Agh! I was thinking about symbols and... Well, you're working with images, so you probably quite understand. But when you are an image producer, I think not even the people that is producing the images are conscious of how much the image requires for you to enter kind of like a dreamlike state of kind of like fooling yourself or tricking yourself into believing those images are real. And yeah, so I think it also happens with writing, right? Like words are also symbols. So the process of writing, it's about kind of like, yeah, like jumping. Because if you stop for a second and you look at your words, then you're kind of entering this meta comment in which you comment what you are writing and that's something that never finishes. So you really need to kind of enter a storyline or something in a way, right?
MP: Yeah well, I have to say that sadly, sadly, in my writing —and I'm not happy about this and also I think it's a result of going through academic writing— my writing is too rational and too. I'm trying to go out of that a little bit, but I can imagine what you say about the images because I don't produce images myself —or at least physical images— maybe mental images, yes. But I see it because actually through Visions of Manuscripts I have a lot of artists following me and a lot of artists talking to me about their experiences creating images. I can imagine that this is a special extraordinary state of mind sometimes.
W: I mean for the way the the artist —I will include myself in this list of people— think and act we tend to not be very friendly with academic texts. Maybe it has to do with our engagement with the senses and our need to pivot around emotions perhaps or something. But I think it's a great job that you are doing.
MP: I think academical language tends to uniform the language. It's like you have to write in certain way, you have to... And art is the opposite by definition. It's like finding your own language or trying to apply your own language. So in a way they are opposite universes.
W: That's interesting. Even though your practice is mostly academic, I know you also take part in a sound projects
MP: Thank you for remembering me, because even if I have notes I forgot to mention music which is terrible a crime. I have been DJ for many many years I don't even want to mention, record collector. Something that I went into a crisis a little bit. Some years ago I started to to play synthesizers and I started to tour in a project with another person playing synthesizers two MS20s actually and that was my first relation with music. Then I started to explore myself like different aspects of music production; drum machines, sampling, different kinds of reverb or recording experiences in my house. At this moment, I consider myself an improviser. I have been mainly putting together my life sets with other persons and just improvising. Right now I have one project with another person that is actually not quite official yet. So I will keep it like this.
W: Let's keep it a secret.
MP: I'm working in a more systematic way of making music. And after this summer, I expect to have my some recordings of my solo project. This is my relation with music.
W: First of all, I want to thank you for doing what you do because you discovered me a whole new genre of music called Dungeon Synth and I'm definitely loving it. It's like kind of the place in which black metal and synth music collide and it
MP: It comes from black metal.
W: It comes from black metal music, right?
MP: Thank you for saying this because to me, Dungeon Synth is one of the most underrated genres in music right now. And I think it's actually one of the most fertile and prolific music genres that right now are happening. It has a lot of influence of video game soundtrack also.
W: Yeah, definitely.
MP: 80s 90s… and what I love the most about dungeons is that is inspired in a certain idea of middle ages but it's always a recreation of these middle ages which is what I love to imagine this person in their bedrooms creating music inspired in all histories it's so beautiful to get in touch with this this personal universe in a way. I love this genre and I think it's it's very versatile actually.
W: It feels like an attempt to remember old folk, medieval vibe, like 12th century bard music or something. But there is also because of the use of the media, it has this essence of nostalgia of the early 80s video gaming, like Zorg. I am not an 80s kid but there were many roguelikes that had this type of sense. So yeah, really, really thank you for that. And I wanted to ask you, what makes your life experience playful?
MP: Well I like a lot this question because to me playfulness is actually a word that is a lot in my conversations. I give a lot of space in my life for playfulness. I associate playfulness in a certain way with a certain kind of creativity that doesn't need to be materialized, can be a creative approach to to your daily life. When I talk about creativity I don't necessarily talk about art can be just a state of mind and to me it requires a very sharp state of mind. To be very awake and to be in synchrony with all the things happening around you, by being aware of these elements happening around you or inside you, you are able to manipulate all these elements in a extraordinary way but for doing this you need to be awake, you need to be sharp, you need to be focused, you need to be ready to listen everything, to be flexible with the reality and to be open with the messages that you have around. To me playfulness is this playfulness is to take these elements and combine them in a way that is creative and is experimental.
W: Yeah, one of the things that most marks me of all you've mentioned is the need to be flexible and enter a state of fluidity. But it's kind of againlike as we were saying before with writing,
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it's kind of entering a dreamlike state.
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If you hold on for a second to take a look at yourself and you start analyzing
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what's going on,
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boom,
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instantly you lose it and you enter analysis paralysis and there is no way in which
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you can play.
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And I think...
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I'm trying to engage at the moment in several different ceremonial ritual practices,
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or I'm trying to read those texts that make references to the ancient ways to
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approach the cosmos,
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let's say.
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And I find quite problematic how a strict and paternalized ritual magic is for its
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shape and its form that doesn't allow
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room for this improvisation of just allowing every element to pass on.
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And I think it has to do in a way with this myth that most of us have in
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Christianism or even in all the Abrahamic religions of the separation between God
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and the rest of the existence or the fact that at some point we chose to use reason
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to understand everything in a way.
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And
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how much all these movements of media,
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like hermetic movements and so on are based on reason and patterns of reason or
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visualization of patterns of reason quite often limit,
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in my own experience,
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the ability to actually be illuminated,
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if you might say,
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but I don't know in which words to put it.
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Be playful.
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Yeah, of course.
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yeah yeah actually i fully agree with you with the with the question of
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ceremoniality you know uh that is like uh is to me sometimes uh and also it's true
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we we come from a culture that is highly ceremonial and very ritualized and
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sometimes
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this is a little bit of goes against our intuition which is the main value that we
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have to be sharp to be to be in the place we have to be you know something very by
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instinct i would say and
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that's also one of my problems with uh ceremonial practices that i i consider
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myself too anarchist for that and and so intuitive no and actually even in in the
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academy i always was very intuitive of course you have to follow scientific method
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but in this scientific method intuition also has a place
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And naturally is one of the most important tools that you have.
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Yeah, I totally agree with you.
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And I think playfulness is actually,
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for being playful,
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you have to be able to break all the ceremonies.
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You have to be an iconoclast in a way also.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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In which ways do you think you engage with your playful practice?
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Yeah, as I said before, I'm always moving by intuition.
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I always try to be... I will try to describe it because to me there are...
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certain states of mind or emotion that is difficult in words no but and it's okay
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that is like that but what uh what i try to do uh is being awake as much as
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possible uh in this sense i think to me reality uh is reality i know is a complex
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word but uh
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We're going to discuss this, but well, let's use it.
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Maybe it's not for those historians who talk about, though.
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Yeah, that's true, yeah.
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But Sweet Reality is a big book.
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It's a book that I'm constantly reading and reflecting on it.
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I think I don't reflect so much on me myself,
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but I reflect a lot in how I relate with this book that is around me.
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So I try to be as awake as possible.
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and in this state of blessing or illuminated feeling a state before i try to to
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follow my instincts and my intuition and if i'm honest i don't have
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too many systems for that it's just kind of improvising with this playfulness no i
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mentioned before it's kind of improvising with the elements of the moment every
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moment to me requires a different system let's put it like that and the the
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challenge yeah yeah the challenge is to find the system in in every different
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situation in chaos magic we call that a paradigm
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yeah so there is there's this constant uh so you you get into a system you are you
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analyze the system and then you find out that this system doesn't encompass all the
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needs you have and then you boom you switch to something else boom boom boom yeah
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that's that's it and i would say that's why it's difficult to
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to let's say describe a system because to me it's more than analyzing is like
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feeling what the moment is driving me to is it's more emotional that's why to me
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it's very difficult to put words into that and and just acting in a in a way that
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somehow to me makes sense or fits with this kind of harmony you know
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whatever whatever reality means um yeah but um would you say that there was a
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moment you you realized or like a kind of like a moment that you said wow i need to
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make something about this or like i don't recall a particular moment of awakening
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or something
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i don't recall a moment like that if it happened i don't remember which is very sad
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but yeah i don't i think i as i see my life or my realizations to me are like an
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organism that always was there and maybe it was mutated thing
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With time, it was changing, but these organisms always were there.
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So this is how I see it.
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Maybe it's not true, but this is how I feel it from now.
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It's interesting.
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I both understand that and also,
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let's say,
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awakening or moments in life that maybe you've stepped too much outside reality.
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There are many ways to step out of reality.
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Of course, there are many ways.
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But I understand what it also means to just feel like you went through your whole
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life saying,
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what's going on?
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This is weird.
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There is something that needs to be improved or something like that.
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Because I've already felt in that state in my life as well.
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So, yeah, I quite get that too.
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I'm curious about your sources of inspiration.
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Do you have any like cultural content or like a film, music or something?
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I would love if you shared with me a playlist from Spotify.
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Please, please.
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Yeah, of course.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I would be very happy to that.
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well i have been thinking about this about what inspires me or who inspires me or
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or yeah what i feel inspired by and thinking about this reflecting about this i i
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realized that there are maybe not one person or or not a movement or or something
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but
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no no don't worry of course um but there are yeah certain things that inspire me
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and i admire and these certain things can be in in different kind of people no
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uh i will just mention two things that are related that to me are a big source of
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inspiration and i admire deeply one of them is when you see someone developing a
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discipline by intuition and just by observation i will develop this a little bit
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and i say this because i come yeah from academic background and
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to me when you acquire knowledge through studying it's okay but i don't find it
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let's say too inspiring no it's something everyone with these tools can do in a way
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no but what i find it's very impressive is and i will put
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an example is like for example female 15th and 16th century alchemists that they
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were excluded from the intellectual alchemical discussion because they were women
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so they developed their own way of practicing and their own way of communicating
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alchemy
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the same happens with female presence in medicine in 15th 16th century you have a
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lot of women they don't know how to read but they knew how to diagnose a body they
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knew how to understand the body and they knew how to cure a body and to me this
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this attitude is terrible terribly inspiring i this is something that i i find very
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inspiring inspiring and i find it
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in many people around me for example uh i don't know i'm just thinking my father my
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father uh he learned how to fix his clothes by himself and what i find very funny
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is that in the sewing in the sewing activity he introduced construction elements
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because it's what he knows so he makes the universe of fixing clothes with the
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universe of
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construction and i find it inspiring because he's creating a third discipline yeah
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or something that to me this intuition this instinct is is very inspiring so this
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is something that i would say i find it very inspiring and i find it of course in
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many artists but also i'm most important in many people around me
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and the second thing that i find is very inspiring and i think is relating is
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related to this is uh courage having courage being brave to go out of your comfort
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zone yeah to me this is something that yeah uh definitely is
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it has a lot to be with with the thing i was describing before because for for
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being experimental and being playful you have to be brave and to me best things
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always come from a position of challenge and a position of challenge to to your
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towards yourself yeah so yeah i would say these are the things i find i'm inspired
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by
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How nice.
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You've mentioned women alchemists and their own languages.
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They've leveled up to communicate alchemy.
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Would you like to share some names or do you have some names at hand or from the
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top of your head?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, of course.
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So,
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yeah,
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there are several female alchemists and many others that are probably not documented,
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sadly.
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This is one of the problems.
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of studying this subject.
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But I would say I like a lot an alchemist Camilla Arkolani,
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that she was,
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she basically was a doctor of a pharmacist.
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So she grew up in a laboratory,
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basically,
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no,
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like doing,
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creating medicines,
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different kind of things.
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And what I find very interesting about her is that she, she reads
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She has read all the classics of Alchemy, all the authorities on Alchemy.
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She has read them and she was actively against them.
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this is uh basically no like this is just uh possible and the things that i know
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this is what i find fascinating on her is like the things that i know i know
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because i work in a laboratory every day and i don't need enigmas or things like
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that so to me this is very inspiring and and it's very it's very punk in a way and
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i think this can only happen
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if you are forced to think about a subject from the underground.
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And I think because her condition of woman,
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she was forced to approach Alchemy as an outsider and these to me are the best
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visions always.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I cannot even imagine what it can be to have to communicate this to a society
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that is actually the one that is putting you in the,
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leaving you aside or putting you in the side road.
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That's the most difficult thing because you have first to learn to understand
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what's going on inside you or around you.
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put words to it and then have someone to listen to you those are three elements
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that are all of them super difficult and then all encompassing them it's almost
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impossible that's probably why we don't have uh early woman of science almost uh in
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the public sphere right and i'm remembering now how
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I don't know who told me or it's,
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I don't know,
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but one of our,
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in Spain,
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there's one of the most famous texts,
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El Lazarillo de Tormes,
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which is,
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which is anonymous.
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And someone told me once that probably if,
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if a text of the medieval ages is anonymous,
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it's probably because it was written by someone that it was in this underground
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world you're mentioning actually.
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Totally, totally.
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I mean, it's,
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Obviously,
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I don't want to romanticize this,
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it's a sad story,
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but the positive side of this is that it gives a lot of extraordinary visions.
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People who thought and who created and who reflected from this position.
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yeah the the is what we talked before about playfulness actually no it is the same
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thing but in this case because you are forced to see the things from the outside
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and this but but obviously but also yeah i think it's interesting no what it gave
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still to study deeper in deep
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Yeah.
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If there was a lesson that you learned throughout this way of yours,
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your life,
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what would it be if you had to share like something you learned all along?
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Something I learned?
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Well,
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related to this,
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what we have been talking now,
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I would say something that I learned is to be flexible.
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uh to me yeah being flexible is essential i don't mean by being flexible very
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intolerant with certain things i mean yeah being flexible in the way you read the
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reality whatever is reality and the way you put yourself
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in this reality i think being flexible is very important and something that to me
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also something that i learned is uh the importance of kill all your expectations
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when you are uh especially creating something to try to achieve a state of mind
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that is no expectations at all
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but at the same time this is very paradoxical being open to whatever result you
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have so in a way kill all despertations but in a way being open to all expectations
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as possible yeah this in a way is the same as i said before because it's very
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flexible no
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To me,
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being flexible and being capable of improvising and to read in the moment what is
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happening is one of the main learnings I got.
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It's too abstract, I know, but I think, yeah, I think you get me, right?
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Yeah, I get you.
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Yeah, because for me, I think the way I have a take on this paradox you mentioning is
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Like,
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there is no...
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Like,
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if you try to set an ultimate reality,
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that's always going to be kind of like a hoax.
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And mostly any objective that you set on your life is based on that hoax,
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on that ultimate reality that you think it's truth or...
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Which sometimes you don't even...
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You can't even name.
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But some people do it, some people don't.
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But... It's funny...
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It's funny that you say this because this is something that I learned not thinking.
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This is very funny,
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not thinking and not reading,
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but it's something that I learned by doing music,
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actually.
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I learned a lot about doing music.
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To me,
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music is,
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let's say,
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my way of learning about reality,
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not actually writing or reading,
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which is funny.
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but for example sometimes I want to record something that I have in my mind and I
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want to do it so badly and this has to be like this this has to be like that and
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then you have of course a lot of ambitious projects in your mind but then when you
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sit with the machines you need to the machine
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Yeah, they have another wheel, no?
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They have their own plans for reality.
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Of course, they have their own plans because they are also individuals.
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You are trying to force your machines like,
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please do this,
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do this,
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do this,
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especially analog machines,
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they are individuals,
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it's just like that.
(00:37:04):
If you approach life and art like this, you are destined to be frustrated, always.
(00:37:12):
Always.
(00:37:12):
To me,
(00:37:13):
what I learned is the best way to make music or to be in life is to switch with
(00:37:19):
your machines to listen what they have to give you and then from there creating the story.
(00:37:28):
To me,
(00:37:28):
first you have to listen not only what you want,
(00:37:32):
but what the reality wants from you also.
(00:37:36):
It's astonishing how engaging with music or time bending systems,
(00:37:44):
and I'm not only referring to hard wire systems,
(00:37:50):
but also soft systems like schemes of ideas or even patterns of sound.
(00:37:57):
It's incredible how,
(00:37:58):
let's say,
(00:37:58):
music changed completely your perception of time and how you become aware.
(00:38:07):
It's very difficult to put into words,
(00:38:08):
but the most specific way that I can put it is how much easier it is for me to
(00:38:15):
perceive the lapses of time going on.
(00:38:20):
It's easier for me to notice when five minutes went on or half an hour went on,
(00:38:26):
since I am engaging with musical practices and meditative practices or time-bending technologies,
(00:38:33):
let's say.
(00:38:34):
So, yeah, I can reflect a lot on that.
(00:38:37):
And, yeah, it's a wonderful teaching.
(00:38:40):
Thank you.
(00:38:40):
No, thanks to you.
(00:38:45):
Now we're going to make a little break.
(00:38:49):
And I want to ask you, are you ready for some magic?
(00:38:52):
Yes, I'm ready.
(00:38:53):
Of course.
(00:38:54):
Let's get to it.
(00:39:16):
Quite a good scene, isn't it?
(00:39:18):
One man crazy, three very sane spectators.
(00:39:24):
It's moving.
(00:39:25):
It's alive.
(00:39:28):
It's alive.
(00:39:29):
It's alive.
(00:39:32):
It's moving.
(00:39:33):
It's alive.
(00:39:42):
Okay, we're back.
(00:40:01):
And now we will look at life from a different perspective by trying to understand
(00:40:05):
it as a great game.
(00:40:07):
We will do this by adding a bit of game design theory and going through one of the
(00:40:11):
lenses that Jesse Schell suggests in his book,
(00:40:14):
The Art of Game Design.
(00:40:17):
The correspondent lens today is the quintessence.
(00:40:21):
When interviewing Aisha Adamo,
(00:40:23):
we were talking about the four alchemical elements and their role within life and
(00:40:28):
the creative practice.
(00:40:30):
But this analysis falls in a vacuum if we do not take into account the overall art
(00:40:35):
of things,
(00:40:36):
a gestalt.
(00:40:38):
That je ne sais quoi that holds everything together in the experience.
(00:40:43):
In one of the first episodes of the show,
(00:40:46):
we've mentioned how difficult it is to enter further states of awareness without
(00:40:50):
falling into an analysis paralysis and offered some tools to address this problem.
(00:40:56):
In this case, we will try and see everything at once in a flash.
(00:41:02):
It's fine to shift the focus to a specific thing and then back to a map view.
(00:41:07):
but it's far better to view life and experience holographically,
(00:41:13):
as Jesse Shell puts it in his text.
(00:41:16):
So what elements of your life make the experience engaging?
(00:41:24):
We were talking about playfulness before,
(00:41:25):
but we're trying to open the scope now and try to address it from the perspective
(00:41:32):
of engaging.
(00:41:34):
What makes it engaging?
(00:41:37):
So what makes the playfulness engaging or what makes the life engaging?
(00:41:45):
The life experience engaging.
(00:41:47):
It's kind of like opening this question a bit.
(00:41:50):
OK, actually.
(00:41:53):
I would say the playfulness itself.
(00:41:59):
Because I am this kind of person that enjoy more the mythos and the path than the result.
(00:42:09):
So I would say that if we mentioned before that playfulness is a methodology to
(00:42:17):
knowledge in a way,
(00:42:19):
is something that was mentioned.
(00:42:21):
i also would say that to me is uh an objective itself and that same methodology is
(00:42:31):
to be what makes life engaging i would say okay because i understood that you said
(00:42:36):
mythos in the first place i was like okay yeah uh methods but um do you do you find
(00:42:47):
a specific method more engaging well what i would say is that i remember and this
(00:42:54):
will contradict a little bit you asked me for before no you asked me do you
(00:42:59):
remember a specific moment of realization or i would say no but i also would say
(00:43:07):
that i remember a moment of my life
(00:43:11):
That was especially,
(00:43:17):
you know,
(00:43:17):
when we were talking before about being flexible,
(00:43:21):
being playful,
(00:43:22):
being connected with your surroundings and with yourself and the surroundings and
(00:43:28):
whatever is reality.
(00:43:30):
I think this is an state of mind that I named it before sharp state of mind and
(00:43:38):
state of awakeness.
(00:43:40):
And I do remember,
(00:43:42):
I do remember one moment of my life,
(00:43:44):
one period of my life that this was especially sharp.
(00:43:53):
And the way I achieved this is by dancing, by dancing, I was for a while
(00:44:04):
doing a intensive course of contemporary dance in lisbon when i was living in
(00:44:11):
lisbon basically when you are learning this you are constantly being aware of your
(00:44:19):
body into one space and not only that but constantly
(00:44:26):
being extremely aware and sensible to your body, the space and other bodies in the space.
(00:44:35):
And I think after weeks of working under this perspective,
(00:44:43):
it could happen to me,
(00:44:44):
for example,
(00:44:45):
I would be working in the streets and I would feel the gravity
(00:44:50):
which is something that normally we are not that aware,
(00:44:53):
of course,
(00:44:54):
influences our lives,
(00:44:55):
but we are not aware of it.
(00:44:57):
We are not feeling it.
(00:44:58):
So I was feeling the gravity.
(00:45:00):
I was feeling the temperature.
(00:45:02):
I was feeling the wind coming across.
(00:45:05):
I was feeling other bodies passing through me.
(00:45:08):
So I think this...
(00:45:11):
It was a moment that I was, if you can call it like that, a medium.
(00:45:18):
I was receiving everything around me.
(00:45:20):
I was open to everything.
(00:45:23):
How would you change the elements of your practice?
(00:45:28):
And this includes everything.
(00:45:30):
It can be everything.
(00:45:33):
To improve your experience.
(00:45:34):
So those lacks that you can see that you have in your experience,
(00:45:38):
whatever that is,
(00:45:39):
how can you change?
(00:45:41):
They make these little changes,
(00:45:42):
so boom,
(00:45:43):
it all kind of recovers a higher sense or something like that.
(00:45:51):
I'm not a person that thinks so much, actually.
(00:45:56):
What I mean is that, yeah, I think you know what I mean.
(00:46:08):
reflecting in my methodology or i'm just feeling things and intuitively moving or
(00:46:17):
keeping something so i don't think i think in changing things i mean of course i
(00:46:25):
i'm a very anxious person for example i would like i would like to change that but
(00:46:30):
i don't know how how not be
(00:46:33):
yeah i would like to not be you know so i don't necessarily need this reflection
(00:46:41):
because i wouldn't know how to answer that because i just don't rationalize things
(00:46:49):
so much i just like instinctively move in or out emotions or feelings okay without
(00:47:00):
Yeah, I think you understand, right?
(00:47:02):
Yeah.
(00:47:07):
You sometimes can get caught up in trying to plan things too much.
(00:47:14):
But yeah, we're coming to an end.
(00:47:16):
Do you have a question that you would like to leave open for the listeners?
(00:47:21):
A question?
(00:47:22):
Well, I wanted to ask you something, actually.
(00:47:25):
Oh, to me?
(00:47:27):
yeah sure yeah go for it uh because uh um this is something that i would like to
(00:47:34):
ask you and maybe discuss it or not but um this last section of the our
(00:47:40):
conversation you were uh you mentioned the acquaintances and i'm sorry i didn't
(00:47:47):
relate my answers to this i just say what i want and i wanted to ask you that's how
(00:47:53):
it goes i want to
(00:47:55):
yeah that's how it goes i want to ask you i mean it's a concept that this is very
(00:48:01):
dear to me and it's not related to that but i want to ask you what what uh is that
(00:48:08):
for you fun i wrote it here the other day
(00:48:17):
So one of the reasons I moved to the Netherlands was because I was looking for meaning.
(00:48:24):
I felt too trapped in the place I was.
(00:48:29):
And I came to the Netherlands searching for meaning in the process of I want to
(00:48:34):
find the thing that gives that meaning.
(00:48:42):
That element that conjoins everything in my life.
(00:48:47):
Yeah.
(00:48:49):
And I'm afraid that it has a lot to do with identity and my problem with identity
(00:48:54):
and my constant need of flowing and getting to know new people constantly.
(00:49:02):
Because me, myself, whether I like it or not, I'm a bit of an anarchist as well.
(00:49:08):
And you see reflected that in the way I socialize,
(00:49:12):
which is I'm embracing the fact that I'm probably a relationship anarchist,
(00:49:18):
whether whatever that means,
(00:49:20):
because sometimes saying that is very paradoxical.
(00:49:24):
It makes no sense because there is no model through which you can describe relationship anarchy.
(00:49:32):
But
(00:49:34):
So the problem of anarchy in general is the rejection of identity,
(00:49:38):
radical rejection,
(00:49:39):
as I see it,
(00:49:40):
is the radical rejection of identity as we understand it.
(00:49:44):
And the Netherlands is a country that is very international or widespread,
(00:49:52):
wide open,
(00:49:52):
globalized.
(00:49:54):
They've gave up their own traditional identity into opening up to the whole world and
(00:50:05):
And you can see it in the policies and the way they approach culture.
(00:50:10):
But I realized that meaning is probably tied to joy.
(00:50:15):
And that's why I am carrying out this podcast at the moment, The Great Game.
(00:50:24):
Because this step jump into vacuum, it's not vacuum, but you get me, was...
(00:50:34):
It was a process of trying to find playfulness in my life.
(00:50:38):
How can I make my life,
(00:50:41):
all this undescribable pattern that is going on,
(00:50:45):
that you can see sometimes repeats and sometimes is chaotic,
(00:50:49):
all of that is going on,
(00:50:50):
how can you make it meaningful?
(00:50:52):
How can you say, okay, this game is worth being played?
(00:50:58):
So the process of that is trying to figure out which the rules are for me,
(00:51:03):
which the rules are for all the people that is around me,
(00:51:06):
and trying to find the way in which this game can be joyful.
(00:51:14):
And I wrote here, joy holds the string to valuable things, notice.
(00:51:20):
Is joy spelling words invented in forgotten symbols?
(00:51:26):
So that's the way I put it.
(00:51:27):
That's quintessence for me.
(00:51:31):
Okay, nice.
(00:51:33):
nice i i like to yeah i like to hear your your vision on that because i saw this
(00:51:43):
award that is or a concept that was kind of resonated with you and to me if
(00:51:53):
you would ask me i won't do it but to me it's just like yeah academic uh alchemical
(00:51:59):
terminology is just that and i like to see how you are playful with this concept
(00:52:06):
and applying to something emotional or a reflection i like to see it applied in
(00:52:15):
that way so that's why i was curious yeah i think i think if if
(00:52:21):
If any cultural production,
(00:52:24):
that's how we call it nowadays,
(00:52:25):
but anything that is produced by human beings to produce culture or to just
(00:52:30):
encompass culture,
(00:52:32):
if it's good,
(00:52:35):
if it's good quality,
(00:52:37):
it remains through time.
(00:52:39):
If something that was said,
(00:52:40):
if something that was done,
(00:52:42):
you can just look back and say,
(00:52:45):
this still works nowadays.
(00:52:46):
If I open the DAO,
(00:52:49):
at the moment.
(00:52:50):
So I have the copy of the DAO by Ursula Kallegrin here.
(00:52:54):
If I open here and I read a line, it works.
(00:52:58):
For some reason, it works with my life.
(00:53:00):
It's not talking about, I don't know, like something that is not relatable to me.
(00:53:09):
So, and I just think
(00:53:12):
The same for alchemy.
(00:53:13):
If I want to get into alchemy now and I want to take a look at the text,
(00:53:18):
I need to find a way in which those things that were produced 15 centuries ago,
(00:53:24):
I don't care.
(00:53:25):
I know that's way too much.
(00:53:27):
But if the stuff that was produced centuries ago was working then,
(00:53:35):
why and how can we make it work now?
(00:53:39):
And that's a bit the approach that I take on it.
(00:53:44):
And thank you for asking this question because I've never told anyone.
(00:53:50):
I was curious because,
(00:53:51):
yeah,
(00:53:54):
I was just curious because to be just,
(00:53:56):
yeah,
(00:53:57):
not just,
(00:53:58):
I don't want to,
(00:53:59):
I don't want to,
(00:54:00):
but to me it's very a concrete concept.
(00:54:04):
And I know that a chemical language is used.
(00:54:12):
for emotional, psychological aspects.
(00:54:18):
But I know this is very personal also and very individual.
(00:54:21):
So I was curious about your perception of that.
(00:54:27):
Yeah,
(00:54:28):
for me,
(00:54:28):
any magical practice is about going through the things that you find intuitively
(00:54:35):
meaningful and try to find value in keep practicing it.
(00:54:42):
And if you don't see any value, you don't have to do it.
(00:54:45):
That's how we see it.
(00:54:47):
I would like to extrapolate this question also to the listeners.
(00:54:50):
You asked me this question,
(00:54:51):
but I think it would be good for everyone to think,
(00:54:54):
what is quintessence for you?
(00:54:57):
You are the scholar here, but how would you describe Quintessence?
(00:55:02):
Me, myself?
(00:55:04):
Well, not in your life, but in scientific terms.
(00:55:11):
Well, in alchemy it's also abstract because alchemical language is very abstract.
(00:55:17):
but it's like the purest form or something.
(00:55:23):
It's like the most... the distillation of the purest form of some element or some essence.
(00:55:34):
Of course, this can become very abstract and very philosophical, can become very, very chemical.
(00:55:43):
But yeah, to me it's that, it's the purest distillation of something, some element.
(00:55:53):
You know,
(00:55:53):
like to me it's just a boring,
(00:55:56):
not boring,
(00:55:56):
I don't want to put it down,
(00:55:58):
but it's just an academic concept.
(00:56:05):
And I like to see it transformed into something.
(00:56:13):
okay uh where can we find some of the stuff that you do or if you publish something
(00:56:19):
if you release something yeah yeah and i'm now working on yeah this book that is uh
(00:56:28):
taking my summer out so so you know you you will see it published next year um
(00:56:37):
would you like to share your profile on instagram as well and your project on um
(00:56:42):
I think Visions of Manuscripts,
(00:56:45):
I think it has dots in the middle,
(00:56:47):
but I don't remember exactly where.
(00:56:50):
But I think Visions of Manuscripts.
(00:56:53):
We'll leave it in the description below.
(00:56:55):
Yeah.
(00:56:57):
So,
(00:56:57):
yeah,
(00:56:57):
you just check the show notes because we will leave all the stuff that we've
(00:57:02):
commented here.
(00:57:04):
And thanks a lot, Maria, for this.
(00:57:08):
This was our first conversation.
(00:57:09):
It was incredible.
(00:57:10):
I had lots of joy.
(00:57:12):
This conversation was part of the quintessence, definitely.
(00:57:21):
I think situations like this are so important for everyone, for me at least, they are.
(00:57:28):
So I want to thank you for being so nurturing.
(00:57:33):
So no, thanks to you.
(00:57:35):
I enjoy a lot.
(00:57:36):
And also thank you for introducing me to... Thank you to you.
(00:57:42):
Okay, thanks.
(00:57:44):
And see you soon.
(00:57:46):
See you.
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